From yesterday's comment thread at Seasons of Tumult and Discord...
Grim: Several women I know voted for Bill Clinton, GWB, and BHO because they found them sexy. Not because their policies would be good for the country, but for raw sexual attraction...Women are easily swayed by the powerful sexy man. Hitler and Mussolini’s biggest supporters were women, not men.
Todd White: You’re saying HITLER was sexy? Oh boy. Anyhoo, Hitler and Mussolini’s soldiers were 100% men.
Grim: It may seem crazy now but Hitler had chicks gina tingling for him all over the damn place. Most big men do.
Todd White: Oh boy! Someone’s been reading too much Roissy! But seriously, just out of curiosity, under your “gina tingling theory of human development,” do you explain Jesus’ popularity through gina tingling too? If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, did a gina tingle cause it?
And now for the actual quote...
Talleyrand: Looking at the way Mary washed Jesus’ feet and Martha cooked for him, I would say there was attraction for him. Aloof and unattainable are all alpha characteristics. Risk taking (his behavior ultimately gets him punished and killed while the Beta Peter lies to save himself) a disdain for convention and the social dominanace he has over his circle of friends all clearly indicates that Jesus was alpha and someone women would find attractive.
To that, I could only say...
I think this comment thread has certainly reached the “unintentional comedy” phase.
Personally, I find it sad that in your philosophy everything comes down to “gina tingling” and (I presume) “penis tingling.” Even Jesus is not spared your reductionist psychoanalysis.
I honestly have to wonder what life experiences you’ve had to allow you to believe such weird things.
11 comments:
Todd,
I never said that sexual relations are the sole motivators for people's behaviors. Those are your words, not mine. I did want to point very easily that Jesus was a powerful male presence, to deny that is ridiculous.
I like the picture of Jesus, it reminds me that Jesus was in fact a rebel, outside the mainstream which was comprised of the zealots and the pharisees.
It has been pointed out that it was traditional for the men at that time to wear their hair short too, making him a "long hair hippie"
If you don't think Jesus was socially dominate, than I suggest you read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." He definitely spells out that Jesus was not a meek, mild or a nice man.
You want to embrace the feminized version of Jesus where everything comes down to "love", but that is part of the problem with our culture. People want to narrow God down to what makes us feel good and happy.
Tal: "Jesus was not a meek, mild or a nice man."
TW: Jesus wasn't "nice?" I think most Christians would disagree. And disagree strongly.
Tal: "You want to embrace the feminized version of Jesus where everything comes down to 'love,' but that is part of the problem with our culture."
TW: Quite the contrary. I've advocated a "more rational and more muscular" version of Christianity. But that doesn't mean we have to accept that Jesus used "sex and fear" to win converts. That's just factually wrong.
Bottom line: I just thought the fact that y'all were using the whole "Game/Alpha Male" pyschoanalysis on Jesus Christ himself was quite amusing. It just shows how all-consuming and inflexible that philosophy is.
Which is the inflexible philosophy? The one that looks at things out side the accepted "Box" and can note some of the inherent human dynamics in the situation, or the philosophy that refuses to look at it from any other different way, because it makes you uncomfortable?
Was Jesus a man, or was Jesus asexual, neither a he or a she? Notice, before you jump on this that I did not say Jesus was sexual, I am simply asking if he had a gender.
If he was a man, or manifested as a man, then it is perfectly natural and logical to conclude that women would find him attractive. I will go further, since he was the PERFECT man, it makes sense that women would find him very attractive.
Next, if he was not attractive, it would have been hard for him to teach men to become "Fisher's of men" or to draw a following.
If women can find death row inmates attractive, why couldn't they find Jesus attractive? Are you saying there was something wrong with him as a man?
I think you need to read through the Bible a little more carefully. The concept of Hell alone is one of fear to get people to be good. There is plenty of fear used.
By the way, other than wimpy Christians that keep telling themselves that God is a nice guy (see Episcopalians and Unitarians) most christians, and especially ministers and priests would agree that Jesus was not nice.
He was Good, he was noble, he was virtuous and self sacrificing and he was kind and had mercy, but he wasn't nice.
If someone was wrong, he didn't say it was alright. he told them they were wrong and were in trouble if they didn't repent.
A nice guy would never do that, because telling someone they are wrong is not nice.
Further, he called people snakes and other names if he found them very disagreeable, look at what he does and says at the temple.
Jesus was absolutely not nice and I admire him for that.
Show me in the Bible where Jesus was "nice."
Tal: "Which is the inflexible philosophy? The one that looks at things out side the accepted "Box" and can note some of the inherent human dynamics in the situation, or the philosophy that refuses to look at it from any other different way, because it makes you uncomfortable?"
TW: I vote for the first one. Unfortunately, I wouldn't put the whole "Game/Alpha Make" philosophy in that category.
Tal: "Was Jesus a man, or was Jesus asexual, neither a he or a she?"
TW: I don't know. I never met the dude. And if you asked 10 different Christians, you'd probably get 10 different answers. I do know, however, that cultural attempts to portray Jesus as a sexual being (see "The Last Temptation of Christ" or "The Da Vinci Code") have been met with quite a lot of hostility. Interpret that as you wish.
Tal: "If he was a man, or manifested as a man, then it is perfectly natural and logical to conclude that women would find him attractive. I will go further, since he was the PERFECT man, it makes sense that women would find him very attractive."
TW: Sure, I'm willing to go along with that. The question then becomes: "What about Jesus MADE him attractive?" You've given your answer: "Sex and fear." I humbly disagree. And I've noted that very few Christians would accept that answer.
Tal: "I think you need to read through the Bible a little more carefully. The concept of Hell alone is one of fear to get people to be good. There is plenty of fear used."
TW: For the sake of clarification, yes, I do think - based on what I've read in the New Testament - that Jesus used fear as a weapon in his arsenal. (Sex? Umm, that I have no recollection of). But even so, I don't think I'm being too bold when I say that love and benevolence were the key things that attracted people to Jesus (whether it was in 1st Century Judea or 21st America America).
Tal: "Most christians, and especially ministers and priests would agree that Jesus was not nice."
TW: I'm not an expert on Christianity, but I've been immersed in Christian culture enough to say that I'm pretty sure that's false.
I'll tell you what, though: I'll ask 2 of my Christian friends what they think, and I'll post their response here.
I won't bias them by explaining the context; I'll just flat-out ask: "Would you describe Jesus as 'nice?' Yes or no?"
Tal: "If someone was wrong, he didn't say it was alright. He told them they were wrong and were in trouble if they didn't repent.
A nice guy would never do that, because telling someone they are wrong is not nice."
TW: That depends on a variety of factors. In my opinion, when someone corrects me for bad behavior - and does it in a way that shows compassion for me - that is still "nice."
By your logic, when a mom prevents her 2-year old baby from touching a hot stove by slapping his hand, that behavior is "mean." But for ME, it's still nice. The benevolent intent behind the action - and the fact that the action BENEFITS me - is what makes it "nice."
Tal: "Show me in the Bible where Jesus was "nice."
TW: Didn't he talk to the tax collectors and the prostitutes when nobody else world?
Without further a-do, here are the results from our first annual Christian Survey Extravaganza:
1) "Yes, nice."
2) "Definitely nice."
Ha ha ha. O.k., for the sake of completeness I will go out and find two ministers I know and ask the same question, without any lead up.
I am curious, did you ask them how Jesus was nice?
I don't think I ever said that Jesus used "sex," fear absolutely. I also mentioned several attributes that would make him attractive. He was socially dominate, he never lost his frame when dealing with people that tried to trick him with questions, he was a risk taker, he didn't put up with anyone's nonsense. All are attributes that women find attractive.
Actually, I realized that I am comparing the Christians I hang out with, which are more evangelical and fundamentalist and their answer is Jesus was not nice. I've heard sermons on the meme.
However, this directly contradicts my other position that Christianity has become feminized. So I will concede the point.
Define nice. I can see already that word definition creep has entered into your vocabulary. You view nice = good. This is so very wrong on so many levels, but something that our culture pushes.
Nice means being pleasing,agreeable and polite.
So, no, absolutely I don't think the mom in your example is being nice, I think she is being good.
The two need to be separated out.
Tal: "I am curious, did you ask them how Jesus was nice?"
TW: Here's the text of the email I sent...
Random question, and I won’t bias you by explaining the context (at least not yet)…
“Was Jesus ‘nice?’ Yes or no?”
Tal: "Define nice."
TW: I’ve always hated the word “nice.” It’s such a vague term.
But if I had to definite it, I would say it’s both a character trait and a style of temperament. In terms of character: Benevolence. In terms of temperament: Kindness.
Thus, for me, personally, under that definition, I feel comfortable describing Jesus as “nice.”
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